Religion in Transcendence

[Racoon.sf]

Ok, I saw that I accidentally resurrected a very old topic so I thought I'll better start a new one instead.


I refer to this quote fromt he old topic:

george moromisato wrote:

[...] I don't think Transcendence says anything controvertial about religion (either to religious people or to atheists). I'm not even sure where Transcendence says anything at all about real religion.

And I'm certainly not trying to tell a story about religion or anti-religion or to promote or insult religions of any kind.

Domina is not God. Domina is a super-intelligent entity that has physically-possible powers (at least, physically-possible in a universe that allows for FTL travel and alien civilizations).

But more importantly (and I know we disagree about this) I like the flavor that Domina, Oracus, and the Sisters add to the game. And though I'm sure other people disagree too, I think their inclusion elevates Transcendence above the average scifi shooter.

Maybe it's just me.

- end of quote-



I agree, that the story about Domina and Oracus makes a big difference to the standard "You're the hero, go and destroy the big, bad evil that want's to destroy the galaxy." Especially as Domina is obviously not all nice and good (she takes slaves as sacrifices!).

I also agree that there is basically no religious implication in the game (as is in Nethack e.g.). That's something I like in the game as I'm uneasy with the player character being forced to worship some game deity.
On the other hand there are the monasteries of Domina which worhsip and sacrifice her an the pilgrims to the core.

In this context I find it a little disturbing that the player has no real choice in his pick of goals. He (or she) is called by Domina to the core. So he just goes there and that's it. He is set to be a pilgrim of Domina with no choice in this respect. He may not call upon Domina powers or sacrifice or contemplate but he is still forced to be a pilgrim all through the game with no chance to "exit". That is somewhat strange as the game leaves much freedom in any other respect.

Of course there has to be some motif to reach the core to give sense to the game but a choice would be fine and easy to implement. The player character could be a simple merchant or mercenary or scientist to be drawn to the core by curiosity, research or sheer greed. This does not hinder him becoming "accidently" involved in some plot of cosmic scale.
And if you plan on implementing playable factions later the different starting point make sense. A Diomina pilgrim would only be one of them. A merchant starts at a trading station, a mercanary at Korolov or Black Market, a miner at a mining station etc. There would also be room for different "powers" asigned to factions.

Maybe I'm spoiled by the standard "Warrioir, Mage ot Thief" role play game but I like the idea.

[PM]

Playing the game, Domina feels like a nicer version of the metaphysical gods of Nethack. Domina does not get angry and give divine punishment such as cursing your equipment or killing you for invoking or praying one too many times. At worst, Domina just scolds you if you attempt to use Sustain too frequently.

And the trip to the core is just another way of saying "Go to the Astral Plane, offer the Amulet of Yendor at the altar, and become a new (demi)god."

[digdug]

And if you plan on implementing playable factions later the different starting point make sense. A Diomina pilgrim would only be one of them. A merchant starts at a trading station, a mercanary at Korolov or Black Market, a miner at a mining station etc. There would also be room for different "powers" asigned to factions.

I like this. Starting points can be a nice system to make starting ships more different.

[PM]

Another thing, the pilgramage can just be an excuse for the player to become a pirate or omnicidal maniac, and blast every ship and smash every station. All just "For the Evulz". This game has plenty of cruelty potential.

[IceMephit]

Another thing, the pilgramage can just be an excuse for the player to become a pirate or omnicidal maniac, and blast every ship and smash every station. All just "For the Evulz". This game has plenty of cruelty potential.

Sort of like the Crusades?

As for me, it does not bother me that you start the game after receiving a message from Domina and the goal is to reach her. I have always just seen it as a Super-Entity contacted me, asked me to join her at the Galactic Core, and I am going there with assistance from her. She is not a god, nor a demi-god and does not ask to be worshiped, so as far I am concerned, there is no religious tones or undertones in the game. And Domina doesn't take slaves as sacrifice, from what I understand, those coffins house the deceased body of slaves and Domina releases their souls from this plane (Still, it doesn't make her a god, if you believe that modern day psychics can communicate with the recently dead and guide them to the next level [towards the light!]). Just because a few DO worship her as a god (demi-god) and recieve her blessings, doesn't mean that any of us players are following her for religious reasons. Some for the same reason as me, others do it for fame/fortune, and I am sure that some people don't even think about the game in any religious way.

The entire journey for me is liberating from oppression (centauri warlords for example) and finding a way past the quarentine, 'cause I am sure that Domina wants humanity to reach the Core to further our species and make humanity a better race.

So, I see it as a journey towards the enlightenment and betterment of humanity.

[Racoon.sf]

That's a point that could also be implemented via factions. A pirate should not be able to join the militia. There is a whole lot of possibilities here, e.g. which faction is able to trade with which stations and so on. Problematic in balancing, though.

But back to topic: The point is that even though you can in fact play as a pirate or merchant this does not yet reflect in the plot. The player character is and stays a pilgrim, no matter what he does.

If you think it through a pilgrim should not be able to backtrack without need since he is obviously driven to the core by his mission. Also, he should have no incline in serving the militia or Korolov, other than lack of money. For a merchant, on the other hand, it is logical to backtrack a dozen times on established traderoutes.

Edit: This post realtes to PM's post.

[PM]

Side quests such as becoming legendary hero of the Battle Arena or serving in Commonwealth missions can easily provide resources the pilgram needs to make his ultimate journey. Even the pilgram himself can come to that conclusion. If the pilgram believes Domina is God (which the quote from George says she is not), he may even think such side quests are divine providence from God.

I remember years ago, while playing Phantasy Star IV, I thought why would I take bounty hunter side quests just for more money while I need to rush to get the Aeroprism or some other plot coupon. Soon, I realized the answer that along the way, I gain more experience, may find better equipment, and maybe find a plot coupon related to the main quest. (I did not have spoilers or metagame knowledge at the time.)

[Racoon.sf]

Sure, you can justify any action in accordance with the main plot.

I would just prefer if I had an actual in-game-choice on the motivation of the player character to make the story and the universe deeper and force the player to give actual thought if an action fits the role the character performs.

I think that mystical elements like the Domina story add a lot to a plot and a game universe. But forcing the character into a specific unchangable role limits the potential of the game universe and the possibilties for different playstyles.

[Aury]

In TX2, I just added plot, and removed main.

Thus lots of options to choose from (or none at all!), basically a giant mashup of the plot systems of EV games (choices between main plots) & Sandbox (nothing is mandatory)

[PM]

After learning of the various factions, including space pirates (Charon and others), bug people (Ferians and Zoanthropes), Borg (Sung), space elves and dark elves (Ringers and Teratons), and Martians (Ares); sometimes I think the Iocrym and Domina may have the right idea of frying everyone to ashes, provided I do not do the job myself with my overpowered ship.

Okay, Ringers and their kin may not have pointy ears, but they sure invoke various elf tropes. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

If Domina destroys part of the galaxy for a reason (and humanity is part of the collateral damage), and Oracus just wants to kill everyone; then maybe the player could have a choice on joining Oracus instead and have fun killing things along the way.

[Aury]

Something that has always bugged me...
Why would domina need pilgrims to burst through the quarantine she was trying to make? I brought it up before, though that thread seems to have sunken into the netherworld of pages 2 and beyond.

[george moromisato]

This is always an interesting topic for me.

First, as I've said in this post (http://neurohack.com/transcendence/foru ... php?t=3179), Transcendence is bigger than the Domina & Oracus (D&O) storyline [although perhaps it didn't start out that way.]

I fully intend to create (or help others to create) separate adventures that have different stories or even no story. The Sandbox project is certainly one example, but there can be others.

So if you are looking for something that is a completely open sandbox, then there will be adventures to satisfy that. [And if you're looking for more linear storylines, I hope there will be adventures to satisfy that too.]

The Domina & Oracus adventure, on the other hand, is trying to balance both a storyline and a sandbox.

I chose the Domina & Oracus premise to serve as both game mechanic and theme.

As a game mechanic, calling the player to the core serves to give a vague purpose. You'll notice that although in the storyline, the player is compelled to go, there actually aren't any obvious points where the player doesn't have free will. For example, I don't plan on ever having a cut scene that says, "And now Domina forces you to ..." nor do I plan on having the UI ever say, "Domina prevents you from using the Almighty Supercannon."

But the premise also works as part of a larger theme. One of the themes in Transcendence is free will. What is free will? Is it possible that free will is an illusion? Is free will completely internal--only you can judge whether you have free will? Or is it objective? Or is it both?

There are many examples in the game hinting at this:

1. Domina calls the player to the core--does the player still have free will if he thinks he does? [E.g., some of the NPCs that the player meets call him a "plaything for the Gods.]

2. Dwarg and other zoanthropes have given up their free will. The player can control them.

3. Some AIs (e.g., Luminous) have acquired free will. [But even simpler, some autons "rebel" against the player--does that give them free will?]

4. The player "hacks" the Iocrym AI in much the same way that Domina "hacks" the player.

It is hard to balance the needs of a cohesive (if vague) storyline with the requirements of an open sandbox. I want both. I may not always get the balance right, but I am always trying to achieve it.

[Androgeos]

Some of the most critically acclaimed role-playing games on the market have a number of side missions to them (EV Nova; Freelancer), and - well, since I can't think of a better example - look at how the Pokemon anime is: a ten-year-old who originally sets out to be a Pokemon Master gets sidetracked by everything along his way for nearly every episode (and he's still getting sidetracked even until today).

[PM]

The following is perspective from me as a gamer rather than as a role-player, storyteller, or developer.

As long as Transcendence remains exclusively a computer game, the religious stuff in Transcendence is ultimately an excuse plot. All Domina means to me is how can I exploit her to help me win the game, with thoughts such as "Do I get cool powers as a disciple of Domina? Yes? Sign me up!" I see the protagonist as someone who is aware of who he really is. He is the avatar of an unapologetic munchkin who wants to win the game by any means necessary within the rules enforced by the game. He knows his life as a Commonwealth citizen turned pilgram is merely an excuse to justify his existence within a game. Did I mention he knows he is in a game, and the whole universe as he knows it is the playing field? His goal in life is to amuse his master, the player. His master's idea of fun is how he (the avatar) can become "A God Am I" and break the game in half while on the way to victory. He knows forbidden secrets that he cannot possibly know because they were granted by the player. As such he has skills metagaming and ignore pain. The example of the latter is undergoing Teraton medical experiments. As long as he lives, the player will hand wave the pain and the time spent recovering from it away after he gets paid with an item. Also, he may attack non-hostile factions he would not otherwise because his master covets their loot (T31 convoys), hates them with a passion (Salvagers), or both (Ferians).

As for why I think like that, gaming with other cutthroat players in fighting games and multiplayer hack-and-slash games has been a huge influence. Also, quarter-munching arcade games encourage the player to find strategies to extend play time, lest he spends money at a faster rate.

If Transcendence expands into other media, the Transcendence mythos and its stories will have greater importance because the audience cannot game a book or movie.

[Shifter55]

Why would domina need pilgrims to burst through the quarantine she was trying to make?

Iocrym is stasis. In their flavour text it is obvious that they have a fascination with pure order, in the purest form of order everything is the same and nothing changes. Or something , really there is not much about the Iocrym in part 1, probably due to story reasons.